Module Evaluation

Today I completed a module evaluation form and wanted to make a few comments regarding the module. I found this module stimulating and informative but at the same time felt that by having to choose only one of three subject areas mid way through the module difficult to appreciate as I would have liked to have increased my knowledge in all three areas. This is obviously my own personal opinion.

I gave an example in one of my earlier blog entries that I found the subject matter delivered by presentation groups from other sections on the module informative and quite frankly that left me wanting to know more about those subject areas.

The presentation group that went before the group presentation I was in covered Jack the Ripper and in particular the suspects as to who Jack the Ripper really was.

I enjoyed the style of the three lectures as they were able to introduce humour to serious subject matters without being crude which made the learning experience more memorable. I did find it a little disappointing in the 'Suicide Cults' group that there would be students talking at the same time the lecturer was talking and even though being asked to stop talking or to contribute to the group as a whole they often just continued talking which spoils it for the rest of the students and for the lecturer. However, this has also happened in other modules such as Being Bad.

Overall I am glad I have taken the module but now want to know more about the groups I was not involved in (Social Deviance and Jack the Ripper).

Group Presentation

As mentioned already in the group Blog, we did our presentation today on the Waco siege. I agree with the rest of the group that we should have had more practice on the presentation itself and I think academically our presentation was a little weak. If I could do it again I would have given more explanation as to who the group where and a little more of their history. I also would have liked to have posed better arguments for my part with a more "academic" focus.

On the plus points though, I felt that we dealt well with the pressure of the question and answers well. As a group I feel that we got on well and had we started earlier we would have produced a stronger presentation.

This was the first slide on my part of the presentation, I looked at the how we could define Waco. With hindsight I feel I could have given more depth to my arguments and presented it more confidently. I also was aware of out presentation not interesting the audience and I think I would like to address this when I do another presentation. Overall though even with the negatives I have spoken about, I feel that I gained something and will look at it as a learning curve and not as a purely negative experience.

I have enjoyed this module as much as the being bad module last year and it has sparked an interest in the subject for me. The module has also changed my point of view in regards to the way I preserve what I would have called "cults" but now would refer to such groups a New Religious Movements, before this module

Reflections on the presentation

Today the group I was in did the 'Suicide Cults' presentation on the Waco Seventh Day Adventists Branch Davidians. Meena asked a question regarding the difference between Suicide and Martyrdom. Whilst driving back home I pondered this question and have come to a conclusion. Suicide is associated with a person or persons (e.g. suicide pacts) taking their life because they do not see any other way out of their personal circumstances. It is a desperate measure to escape the agony they feel. Martyrdom is more associated with a 'cause' or one's own beliefs. So this is no longer associated with escaping personal circumstances but instead is associated with either trying to make a difference for the 'cause' or having died as a direct result of the 'cause'.

I also feel that in the current world we live in that the distinction between suicide and martyrdom is no longer as clear as it once was. For example the term 'suicide bombers' refers to people and acts associated with promoting a particular cause to try to make a difference and yet the term includes the word 'suicide' which has connotations with taking one's own life and not associated in the past with purposely taking the lives of others.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gE5yINOn4N4&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k9qfzI5-OgM&feature=related

http://www.mercatus.org/repository/docLib/20070801_The_Market_for_Martyrs.pdf

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0899-2851%28200222%29223%3C34%3ATAMRWS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YilPdQ2tVlE&NR=1

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY62VA&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zL4oT6lekbE&feature=related

Reflections on the Group Presentation

Well where do i start it wasn't the best presentation i've ever done, i think the presentation would have been loads better with a bit more paractice. This would have ulitamtley made our presentation a lot more organised. I think that we could learn a lot from our mistakes,like only one of us should be speaking at a time, get the timing right and PRATICE more. Anyway enough of my rambling, below is a link to a video of how group work should be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IM6aYHjfMI

Group Presentation

Well before I start I would just like to say that I am well pleased with the Grade I got for my creative writing piece. I know it has to be moderated yet but still looks good. Anyway moving on.

The group presentation was not the best I have ever done but I think it was OK. We could have had a bit more practice which I think would have been more organised. This I think may have stopped us talking over each other, but we did the best we could at that time. We almost were one short when Mario wasn't there (over slept because he didn't finish work till 6 this morning). Poor thing he is so tired at least he doesn't have to come unto uni straight after work anymore. I alson think we needed to spend more time on it. I think we left it a bit late to start as mario was a late comer to the group. At least its all over now and all we can to is wait and shop and go out and sleep. I'm sure I will be able to fit some uni research in there somewhere. *LOL*

Solar Temple

When looking at all the other NRM's in this module we have always had a wealth of information at out disposal, but the Solar Temple is maybe the "mysterious "group that I have researched. There seems to be a large amount of information upon there creation rather than the time leading up to the deaths of the members.

I think that the most interesting thing about the group is that they all where killed in different ways, some shot up to 8 times. I thought at first that this was where members had refused to kill themselves and the others had killed them and then placed them in a ritualistic fashion. However after reading Dr Jean-François Mayer work I came across some interesting information detailing the methodical planning of the event for mouths before hand. Mayer portrays a group that wanted media attention and even sent information about themselves to the media and academic writers.

Even though the group died together there was much unrest on the group leading up to the deaths and there where members leaving after being tricked into seeing the Ascended Masters, electronic devises. Dr Jean-François Mayer tells of the members of the group bragging that there event would be more shocking than Waco. there seemed to be a definite aim of some of the members to be remembered for the way they dies rather than what they preached and the beliefs they held.

I can see how this group was religious, but I feel that these people where a little more interested in the attention they would receive after the death then there own sacrifice. I think these are the reasons that the group seems so mysterious, because they intended us to seem them that way.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/solar.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/131927.stm

Solar Temple

The solar temple to me was one of the hardest of all the cults to get my head round, as the way in which the bodies were lay out. It was obvious that they liked the repetition of parallel overlapping structures; to Di Mambro, every new structure was a way to redynamise. The goals of the Solar Temple (as presented by Jouret in two lectures in October 1987) seem to be almost identical to those of the Sovereign Order of the Solar Temple (OSTS). These are as follows:

• Re-establishing the correct notions of authority and power in the world.
  
• Affirming the primacy of the spiritual over the temporal.
  
• Giving back to man the conscience of his dignity.
  
• Helping humanity through its transition.
  
• Participating in the Assumption of the Earth in its three frameworks: body, soul, and spirit.
  
• Contributing to the union of the Churches and working towards the meeting of Christianity and Islam.
  
• Preparing for the return of Christ in solar glory.

However the OSTS Templar ritual would begin with a confession of sins, while Di Mambro's began with a kind of guided meditation where participants visualized luminous particles which flowed in and out of their bodies, purifying and regenerating; then they recited Alice Bailey's Great Invocation, followed by a preparatory prayer. The structure of the second part, called preparation are more or less alike and comprise the reading of the beginning of the Gospel of John; but close attention to the two versions of the Essenian rite reveal significant differences. Solar Temple seemed to be looking for a group of people who would be strong enough to survive the time of disasters. Members believed that they were noble travellers on this planet. They felt they were reincarnated with a specific mission to fulfil in their time here. They also felt that they were just passing through here, awaiting their return to their true home. According to the Solar Temple, 26,000 years ago, the Blue Star (related to Sirius's energy) left on the earth 'Sons of the One;' it appears in the sky every time it is needed and responds to magnetization when humanity lives its crises of transmutation. Below are a few links if you would like more information on the Solar temple.

http://www.culteducation.com/solartemp.html

http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=Anb552IHh8e0bScIjzmOtrZWBQx./SIG=12bea27v3/**http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/solar_temple/2.html

http://www.factnet.org/cults/Solar_Temple/SolarTemple.html

Heavens Gate

Heavens gate I feel was one of the weirdest 'cults' there was in all of time. Heavens Gate follower’s beliefs combined elements of Christian scripture, theosophy and other metaphysical teachings along with some contempary folk wisdom about UFOs. They announced that they would be withdrawing into the "wilderness" in preparation for "the demonstration" (the resurrection and ascension to heaven that would follow their assassination). They then went on to announce that the Heavens had cancelled the prophesied "demonstration" because the followers were not ready. Those who wanted to be aboard the heavenly space ship would need to devote more time to disciplined training. As learning to serve was the path to ridding oneself of the ways of this world and of one's earthly body, which came to be known as a "container."
The Heavenly Kingdom that Bo and Peep came to tell of was not simply spiritual, but literal. The method of transportation to this Kingdom was a spacecraft. The price one paid for a "boarding pass" to this higher level was a disciplined life which would bring about a bodily metamorphosis they likened to the transformation from a caterpillar to a beautiful butterfly. Called “Human Individual Metamorphosis” (HIM), this process would literally transform human physiology. They developed a detailed folk wisdom that confirmed to them that the process was occurring. For example, headaches were interpreted as evidence of "consciousness explosion," and menstrual pains as a sign that the process of androgyny was at work.

The list of behavioural rules appear to have changed during the life of the group, but from the onset celibacy, abstinence from drugs and alcohol, limited and controlled contact with the outside world, and reduction of "human-level" interpersonal attachments within the group were key behavioural requirements. The changing of one's name, cutting of one's hair, and disposal of one's human possessions were acts symbolic of the abandonment of worldly connections. Initially the two leaders taught that they would be assonated and after three and a half days there bodies would ascend up to heaven on a cloud and that the instrument of which their bodies would ascend on would be a flying saucer.
On March 27th 1997, it was put to the Medias attention that 39 'cult' members’ bodies were found and had committed suicide. There were a lot of stories around Heavens gate, as people believed that the members were 'brainwashed'. However I feel as with all New Religious Movements members wouldn't join if they truly didn't believe and agree with its teachings or its endings. Below is a couple of links relating to heavens gate.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZD7Y-PDEk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1V4vDMHVQc&feature=related

Jonestown (the peoples temple)

Jonestown (people’s temple) is one of the most controversial 'cults'. The main reason for this is because 919 people committed suicide on the 18thNovmber 1978. When researching Jonestown it was in nearly every book I looked at, Jonestown is used in a lot of the anti - cultists campaigns as they say that Jonestown was the most dangerous cult there was. It has been argued that Jim Jones wasn’t a clergyman but a CIA agent undercover, the most common argument is that the group of Jonestown was religion gone wrong. The reason there are so many arguments surrounding Jonestown is because so many people committed suicide and people can't seem to understand how Jim Jones got so many to commit suicide. However I feel that the people must have been happy to drink the poison and also give the poison to their young children and babies, as there isn't enough evidence to prove otherwise.
Below is a link to one of the death tapes of jonestown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uzEAYv6RT8.

Presentations on 6th December 2007

I attended the first three presentations today and wanted to make some comments. First of all thankyou to all those who participated because the presentations were informative.

In regards to the first presentation on People's Temple and Jonestown there was a question from the lecturer George Chryssides on their reference to brainwashing. I have to admit that I do not agree with their response and almost commented. I believe that in the majority of cases brainwashing is really an excuse to demonise the New Religious Movement and absolve the members of responsibility for having joined that NRM. Having said that I also agree with Eileen Barker's view in New Religious Movements A Practical Guide (1995) that some NRM have had malpractices including the influence that is commonly refered to as brainwashing or mind control. However, I do feel that brainwashing and mind contol are concepts that are too extreme. After all it's not as though the members are usually put in dark rooms with limited lighting where persuasive methods are applied as in previous wars which is where the concept of brainwashing originated from. On the other hand I do feel that some of the NRM I have come across whilst doing this course do have charismatic leaders who are able to influence people.

Another presentation was on Paid Work is Voluntary Servitude. I was intrigued by the concept that the philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau introduced regarding Man Is Born Free And Evereywhere He Is In Chains. I would actually say that in todays society Man is actually born in chains. The birth has to be registered within so many weeks. A Child Benefit number is applied to the baby in order for one of the parents to claim Child Benefit. There are also other benefits such as Child Tax Credits and Child Trust Fund. The later is put in the child's name which he or she can claim once they reach a certain age. There are also benefits such as Maternity Allowance and Statutory Maternity Pay which is claimed before the baby is born. If the mother is working whilst pregnant she has to undergo a risk assessment. There are other benefits as well such as Social Fund Maternity payments and milk token etc. If the child doesn't go to school then the parents could end up in gaol. The point that I am trying to make is that the chains exist even before the child is born.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IY3cx3U0gYE

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aHxCAiAmrlY

New World Order & Waco

Whilst researching this module I came across some conspiracy theories in regards to Waco and the FBI. Shortly before the Waco siege there was another FBI scandal, the Ruby Ridge siege (not a suicide cult). Here the FBI again with their tanks laid siege to the Weaver family in their home over gun modification charges. The siege lasted for 10 days and in this time the FBI killed a fourteen year old boy, his dog and his mother whilst she held her baby. Friends of the family and locals had believed that the US government where corrupt and where members of a government group called "The New World Order". The more extreme Neo – Nazis population, believed that Jews where behind this new order. However the families' involvement with the group was unclear and preceding investigation found that the father of the Weaver family had attended a Neo -Nazi meeting but left as he didn't agree with what they preached. After he had refused the FBI's offer of being an informant, 400 hundred FBI agents surrounded the family home while most of the local town protested at the barricade the FBI hand constructed.

The conspiracy theory in regards to Ruby Ridge is linked to Waco. It is believed by the victims of Ruby Ridge and some of the residents of Waco that the Seventh Day Adventist's where victims of the same corrupt government. The father of the Weaver family was put to trial for murder and gun charges, however 6 days into the trial the Waco siege began. The theory according to the remaining weaver family and the American Militia is that the US government used Waco as away to prove themselves after the scandal at Ruby Ridge. When the Davidians resisted the government aimed to set and example. They believe that the government would destroy anyone that stands in their way. The family at the Ridge had took an active stand against them and so did Koresh's church and the government reacted accordingly.

The father of the Weaver family also makes frequent visits to what remains of the compound at Mount Carmel to visit the volunteers at the time who where rebuilding the church there. (The one that George visited on his holidays) Mr Weaver walks around the memorial trees planted for the victims of Waco and he also talks to some of the volunteers. In the footage I have found, he asks a young volunteer "have you been shot at by the government recently? " the youth says "no" , Mr Weaver replies " things are looking up then."

I think that this is a different perspective of Waco compared to the ones that I have researched. This perspective blames the government in a different way and entirely responsible for the deaths there. after researching the happenings at Ruby Ridge it has made me sympathise with the Branch Davivdians more than I did before hand and I had assumed that I was more sympathetic than most. Shortly after the Ruby Ridge siege the man responsible for the Oklahoma bombings visited the Ridge and what was left of the house. The American Militia also visited it and established their group at the foot of the mountain.

Although this is undoubtedly a conspiracy theory and I don't attempt to answer whether it is true or not, but I do believe that this has to be looked at in order to see the mind set of the of the people of Waco and other NRM's such as Jonestown who was afraid of the government attacking them also. It may be a case of paranoia in the Jonestown case, but 400 FBI agents against a family of 5 could warrent paranoia. This coupled with rumors that officers that carried out the attack at Ruby Ridge also where present at Waco may not be just paranoia.

If this is the real truth behind Waco then it will have a fundamental affect on the way Waco will be judged and may not be defined as a "Killer Cult" at all. . (I have put a link to a video looking at the Ruby Ridge siege, its is the last part of 5 and they all last 10 mins. To view the part about Waco, skip through to around 5 minutes into the video where Mr Weaver visits the Waco compound.)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RpERvXZKZvs

Also if anyone would like to read more on the New World Order please follow the link:

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/

“To late for Russia?”

To research Jonestown I decided to listen to the tapes The Peoples Temple recorded. I found some of the songs that they would sing intriguing. They sang of oppression and how they where put upon as a group from society. I think that the tapes can give a clear indicator of the admiration of the members of the People's Temple would have had for their leader Jim Jones. Many members where poor Black people, they felt the sting of racism in the US and here was a man ready to fight for issues that would affect them. It seems that that Jim Jones with his political approach, held his people very tightly with the issues that affected them the most. I can truly sympathize with the reasoning behind joining such a group.

The next tape I played was what is commonly called the "death tape "(see link below). The tape details Jim Jones talking to the group about the recent "betrayals "of group members. Some of the group had supposedly betrayed them and left on a plane with a congress man, who had been visiting the Agriculture Project where a 1000 of the group lived (Jonestown).

He begins the talk with "how very much I have loved you, how very much I have tried", he then tells them that they have been betrayed. That the plane would be attacked, that he knew what was going to happen, but he did not instigate it. He said that some of the group that had left had "stole" some of the remaining member's children and the parents where in pursuit.

The talk he gives seems too filled with slogans, "Worth one day worth the while" and comments like "no man takes my life from me – I lay my life down". He tells them that they must not have any children left after the plane goes down, as the authorities will butcher them. They must take poison, but it will not be suicide – it's a revolutionary act.

When he proposes to kill themselves and the children, all the people seem to agree however one lady challenges him and someone shouts from the back "you're afraid to die". Jim Jones argues his points with her and she asks "is it to late for Russia?" regarding relocating the group. Again he poses his arguments. It seems that it was the only alternative that Jim Jones saw. I think however this either shows his acute paranoia or his disregard of his follower's feelings. The lady on the tape tries to reason with Jim Jones but obviously her views where not held by the rest of the group, but this gives a unique opportunity to see someone not wanting to die with the rest of the group, which is something that we could not confirm when looking at other suicide NRM.

Jonestown was undeniably a tragedy and although with some NRM that we have looked at in this module we have had information and footage of them Jonestown Death tape provides us with the groups reasoning and a glimpse at the dynamic between Jim Jones and his follows. I think that he had no intention of doing anything else than what happened, regardless if people had supposedly betrayed him or his problems with the US authorities. To him it may have been inevitable the way the group would end, but the lady on the tape and maybe others didn't think so, yet they died anyway. The tape is eerie; however it gives us a glimpse into the final hours of the people of Jonestown.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-uzEAYv6RT8&feature=related

If He Can Be The Messiah Why Can’t I!

Before you read this I should let you know that as group we all decided that our last blogs beforethe presentation one should be about something out of the ordinary. Please if by reading the title you think this will offend you scroll down the page past it and ignore it. Happy Reading

With so many of the cults we have spoken about there is very little we know about why the 'messiah' figure were so readily accepted by the cults they were part of. I refuse to believe that someone’s belief is so strong that if a person knows how to read scriptures in a way to make them sound different to what they have before that they instantly accept them as the leader or the new ’Messiah’.

So it must mean that if you want a life where people do everything you ask them to and you are in complete control, read the bible and change its meanings to suit you. The chances are it is not as simple as it seems, but that’s the way it looks to many people. Maybe if more ‘cults’ came forward to tell people what went on in their organisation, more people would join and less people would make assumptions and put stereotypes onto the people and their 'cults'.

And like I said in the title if it truly is that easy if they can be the messiah why can’t I.

Heaven's Gate

I mentioned in the lecture on 'Heaven's Gate' that I thought this particular New Religious Movement (NRM) was not particularly succesful in regards to the number of people who joined this NRM, particularly when you consider the numerous attempts to recruit people. For example in 1975 130 meetings were organised in the USA and Canada. The group was established for over 20 years when the suicides occured in 1997 there were 39 people who attempted the suicide (two actually survived - not happy that they were resucitated).

The other factors regarding this NRM and others studied in the It Shouldn't be allowed lectures is that there are some interesting minor similarities. Both David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite were dismissed as lecturers from Universities. The reasons given for their dismissal are different but the reasons given are not definitive but rather the reasons given are based on assumptions.

I think that the comments made in the book 'Exploring New Religions' by George Chryssides in regards to the influence of films such as "E.T. and Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "the first landing on the moon" is very valid. There were also weekly television programmes such as Star Trek.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZD7Y-PDEk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=o1V4vDMHVQc&feature=related

And finally a comedic view for light relief.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=o1V4vDMHVQc&feature=related

Here we go again

Why on Earth does anyone feel the need to kill themselves is beyond me. Yes I can see why some people would join 'suicide cults' as many of them had good beliefs when they started out, but as the belief systems change I would think that people would leave. But apparently not.
In some cases such as heavens gate hardly anyone joined up in the first place. Anyone who has seen a video of his speeches should know why. He is so monotonous and he pauses in all the wrong places. He is the exception to the trend that the group leader is mesmerising and is able to capture the minds of his/her followers.

Here is a link of a short 2-minute video of the heavens gate leader (I picked a small one so you had a chance of watching the whole thing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1V4vDMHVQc

And here is one, which has got inside footage of life with heavens gate and at the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZD7Y-PDEk&feature=related

And on another note before I end this post I would like to thank George for all the great lectures we have had, and all the information he has given us. I would also like to add a quick thank you to Mark Jones who organised a trip to do a Jack the Ripper walk in London.

The Restoration of the Ten Commandments

Last Thursday was the lecture on 'The Restoration of the Ten Commandments'. One of the questions asked right at the end of the lecture was What is appealing about joining such a group.
I have to say that one of the first things that struck me that the very name of this New Religious Movement (NRM) reminds me of the 1990's Conservative Party slogan Back to Basic. (During John Major's tenure as Prime Minister for those that can't remember). Therefore, one of the things I think might be appealing is the notion of getting back to the old ways of living and the old values.
I can actually see how a NRM can develop in regards to the notion of The Restoration of the Ten Commandments but find it difficult to understand some of the developments that occured in this NRM in regards to rituals. Having said that I feel it is incredible that certain things that were occuring did not get revealed until after the fire. But then again individual mass muderers have gotten away with murdering several people (often women) over several years before getting caught and sometimes have never been caught. Also there are so many people who are missing and never discovered. Still for these murders to have occured in the notion of the restoration of the ten commandments seems to be a contradiction. When I mention murders I refer to the bodies that were discovered which had been stabbed and poisoned in other graves and not those who died in the fire as it is still debated as to whether those deaths were suicide or murder.

Waco

There is no doubt that Waco was one of the most tragic New Religious Movement's (NRM) as 25 out of the 93 deaths were children. One feels that this factor would certainly make people see it as probably the most tragic, another factor which would probably contribute to this is the fact that there is still to this day uncertainty to whether the fire, which caused the tradegy was lit by the Branch Dravidian's there selves or was actually lit by the FBI in a last ditch attempt to clear the people out the Mt Carmel Center. Most of my research points to the fact that the FBI had actually played a part in the 93 deaths at Waco. I have to say i strongly agree with Mario that there should have been a full investigation in to the way in which the FBI handled things and it should have also been investigated how the fire had started.
Below is a link to a video clip of David Koresh.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn0hcpyGuac&feature=related

Well

I'm not sure what to think. We all know about all the conspiracy theories that surround many of modern day events, as well as theories on old events. Most conspiracy theories end up saying that the government were to blame. In many cases I think it is safe to say that they were to fault, but the fact that people in the compound we doing things that were illegal and immoral makes me think things are a bit different with this one. True the FBI were 'nut cases' for being so violent with so many children in the compound, but the Davidians did have guns and were prepared to do what they did.

Its all a bit confusing to be honest. I hate that the FBI went in with all guns blazing when they could have just arrested him when he was walking around Waco, but the didn't and they could have just knocked the doors down instead of using the force they did, but they didn't. This I think is the problem.

It is clear to see where the FBI and the ATF went wrong because it was put in the media so much but the Davidians were so private that not a lot of people knew what went on in the compound and those that did were reluctant to talk about it. Maybe the media had more to do with it then many think, but I think that is a question to ask Mario as he was around when it happened and I was only 6 at the time and was more bothered about the number 1 song in the charts and what toy I wanted for X-mas *lol*.

Waco was truly a tragedy and I think it could have ended differently but human nature is what turned a possible easy arrest into a large amount of death, injury and upset.

Oh and for the curious I thought I would add a link to youtube so that you can look at many videos with many points of view. http://www.youtube.co.uk/
Happy Watching

Waco and the Branch Davidians

I am one of the few members of those who attended the Waco seminar a couple of weeks ago that actually remembers the Waco incident being covered by the media. In fact the tutor, Georoge Chryssides, may be the only other one in the class who remembers the incident at the time. What can I say - the benefit of being classed a mature student means that you can remember some of the incidents that are discussed in the lectures.

Anyway time to discuss the Waco incident itself. I recall at the time that news coverage of the seige at Waco was being shown on the media on a daily basis. I feel that the media coverage of the seige actually contributed to the unfortunate ultimate disaster at Waco. In fact there are many instances when the media coverage due to the publics appetite for news often applies undue pressure on public authorities for results which in turn often ends up in tragedy or wrong people being arrested and even convicted due to the public demands for justice. However, ultimately individuals are able to make their own decisions and therefore the FBI are far from absolved of their involvement in the seige which led to 93 deaths.

In regards to whether the deaths were suicide or whether the FBI had caused the fire which led to the deaths is something that I feel should have been given more attention. Some kind of independent and thorough investigation resulting in a publiction of the findings should have occured. The FBI should have been held accountable to such an investigation. The fact is that 93 deaths occured and to this day there is no real clarrification as to what really caused the fire that led to those deaths. That I feel is an injustice to those who died and to the families of those who died. What makes it worse is that this disaster occured in 1993 in Texas which is supposed to be a modern and sophisticated country. Quite frankly Texas has become famous for 6 things:-
1. The gun culture.
2. The death penalty.
3. The Waco disaster (1993)
4. The Kennedy assination in Dallas (1963)
5. George Bush (no need to say anymore)
6. Who shot J.R.? (again in Dallas, 1981)

Don't get me wrong the investigation that should have occured should also have covered things such as whether the alleged child abuse was occuring. No real conclusions have ever been made available regarding what caused the fire and many other issues regading Waco and therefore I feel that valuable lessons could have been reached out of such a tragedy to try and prevent such a tragedy occuring again. Instead multiple deaths and seiges are still occuring in New Religious Movements.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=-L0pYN9bCXIC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=waco+scholar&ots=OKXhA6nlQ4&sig=ikEtHIfUf0_yhdSUYLWAcJ9uHiY#PPA281,M1

I have selected two youtube short videos. The first is comedic and the second is quite poignant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xJeeLgMDBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S75N4r5VmuU&feature=related

Seventh-day Advents - SDA

After attending the lecture on Seventh Day Adventists at Waco I came to the conclusion that this was the most tragic, compared to the other incidents such as Heavens Gate, Solar Temple & Jonestown. I don’t know if the rest of my group agree but the SDA members seemed to me to have less in common than the rest of the "New Religious Movements" (NRM) or "cults" we have looked at so far.

Firstly the Waco siege ended in violence on a scale far larger than the other NRM's even compared to the bazaar multiple shootings of the Solar Temple members. Secondly there was a large scale presence of the state (FBI etc) involved in the group’s death. This begs the question would they have been so many deaths if the people of the compound had been approached differently?

I’m not denying that there may have been criminal behaviour happening at the compound. But I feel that a true study of the people living at Waco can never be truly accomplished due to the mismanagement of the FBI.

Lastly there seems to be a lot to be said in favour of the basic believes of the Seventh Day Adventist. The fact that the SDA has many churches across the globe shows its popularity, I even ride past one church in Wolverhampton on the university bus every morning.

The Waco siege was an issue off bad judgement on both sides. I believe it could have ended very differently. I think as George notes in his book “Had the authorities chosen an academic advisor, who might have been more familiar with the kinds of ideas that were being preached at Waco, it is possible that negotiation could have been accomplished with a happier outcome.” * . I think that when trying to study the siege of Waco, the way the FBI behaved and the choises they made are fundamental to way the siege ended.

That’s my perspective, what do you think Meg, Chan & Mario? Could Wacko have ended differently?

Here are some links to youtube videos, I've tried to pick a few different perspectives of Waco. Enjoy!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xud32J6tZrw&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn0hcpyGuac&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S75N4r5VmuU&feature=related

*Chryssides, G.D. (1999). Exploring New Religions. London: Continuum

Group Presentation

I thought for once I would talk about the group presentation instead of my opinion (which by now I am sure is boring everyone the death).

Well I'm sure we are not the only group who wish we would have started earlier but its to late to change that. We have all decided to write our own post on our group work so I wont go into much detail about what everyone else is doing.

The questions we decided I would do are
Examine the group’s distinctively religious practices.
What was the group’s attitude to death and dying?
Based on the group at Waco

That is what is great about working in our group we all end up doing what we want to and all the work is still getting done.

I think that I will have to read some more books then I already have to find out some more information on the groups religious practices as I only have a basic knowledge but there are loads of books in the library for me to look at so I should be OK.

Oh and on a quick note I don't know if anyone else has had this problem but my posts keep on making me write in Hindi and I can't remember setting it as a default.

And another thing I have noticed is that who ever created the dictionary on Microsoft Word must not be Christian as Every time I write Messiah it keeps on telling me I should Write Messiahs and to stop it happening you have to add the word messiah to the dictionary. Surely that can't be right?

The people’s Temple What the Hell were they thinking

I am not the only person I know that agreed with many of the things that the people’s Temple did. Though many of the things that they did were stereotypical of suicide cults their underlying beliefs were not bad. In fact not bad is a bit of an understatement. They were great.

Not many people would get on the same bus as a Black person in the 1950s and yet here they were Black and White people worshiping together. Jim Jones even adopted children of different races. This was an even better achievement, as the Ku Klux Klan was a large part of the population in belief if not participation. So why did it have to go that way?

Maybe it was because he had got the end of the world date wrong or maybe because he was truly scared of the nuclear holocaust he thought would end the world. Something had to go wrong. From it’s starting to its horrid end there was a huge shift in ideas and in the end Jones thought suicide was the only way forward.

I can’t say I’d think that that is the best option and I don’t think it was true suicide because of the way it was done, but I do believe that if he had believed and wanted to only do it to him-self then that would have been OK.

I always say believe what ever you want just don’t hurt anyone else because of it.

On a small note, I am sure I am not the onlyone who thinks this way, but if you have any other ideas or oppinions I would be happy for you to tell them to me.

It Starts All Again

Just before I start writing about the ‘suicide cults’ I thought I should tell you the shameful truth.

This subject was not my first choice (it was my 3rd to start of with), but after George did his first lecture I decided that this was the one for me. I now realise how close I came to not doing the best option.

So to move on our first lecture (the one which changes my mind). It was not based on just one cult, as it was more of an introduction to the subject. George did (what we no know as usual) the whole please turn your phone of, which I wish people would actually listen to.
I can’t say that anything shocked or surprised me in this lecture, as all we really did was talk about stereotypes and what we thought about deviance in general. But it did make me think and that’s what doing a degree is all about.